Suunto T: EPOC Discussion (suunto t6 versus cardiosport gt5)

[jack111]

There are two important features that the suunto T6 does not have compared to the cardiosport GT5.

1] Percentage of Fat Calories burnt
2] Time for HR recovery after a session.

CardioSport GT5 heart rate monitor
SUUNTO T6 - Suunto Heart Rate Monitors Suunto T6 with HRV

I would have thought the above two are quiet important. Not too worried about not having the " Percentage of Fat Calories burnt " bit.
But Time for HR recovery after a session is a must. Is there anything in the suunto T6 which allows me to work out this figure or is there something better in suunto T6.
the cardiosport gt5 is also much cheaper than the suunto t6.

Would be grateful for your help and comments.
thank you.

	Suunto Visit SuuntoWatches.com to see Suunto's full line of wrist top computers and compasses.

	Suunto t6 - Click for more info The Suunto t6 is one of the most exciting new personal training devices to hit the health and fitness market this year. The "t" in t6 (if you don't want to get too technical) stands for "training". It actually refers to the time interval between two heartbeats, or EPOC. Measured to the millisecond, this interval allows you (using the included PC software) to assess your current fitness, set a proper training load, measure your actual fitness gain over time, and achieve your overall fitness goals.

[jack111]

By using jargon like EPOC and Training effect suunto are trying to make it look like they are giving information which cannot be calculated with heart rate. The suunto only measures the heart rate, R-R interval i.e duration of one beat, in other words heart rate. Apart from time of course.
By looking at how long one stays in a particular heart rate zone one can easily find out if the workout has had a training effect. Of course these are approximations. i.e 70% MHR for half hour would induce a training effect in most people and 90% MHR for 10 minutes would do the same. Intensity / duration being the key variables.
EPOC is derived from METS and the relationship between percentage max heart rate and Percentage VO2 max.
%MHR %VO2 max
50 28
60 40
70 58
80 70
90 83
100 100

5 kcal equals approximately one litre of oxygen consumed. One can use this to work out millilitres of oxygen consumed per KG of body mass per minute. This can be used to work out resting oxygen consumption which is about 250 ml/min this is 1 MET . METs is multiples of resting metabolic rate.

I think it boils down to personal choice of whether people prefer EPOC values as opposed to the value of the heart rate.
I would personally perfer the raw data i.e the heart rate as the EPOC value is an approximation all be it quiet a accurate one.

As regards training effort data all one would have to see is how long one has been in a particular heart rate zone. The suunto watches have to make an assumption on training duration. i.e if I excercised at 70% mhr how long before i achieve a training effect. so the duration is an approximation made by suunto. It would be useful if they could release this data.

The more I think of it the more the cardiosport GT5 looks better. As it would allow me to see my heart rate getting back to recovery after each rally which usually lasts a few minutes as opposed to the entire session i.e about 45 minutes.

Must add these suunto forums are great. And I welcome comments as to why EPOC or Training effect would be better. As for some unknown reason I want to buy the suunto and trying to justify it is better.

	Suunto Visit SuuntoWatches.com to see Suunto's full line of wrist top computers and compasses.

	Suunto Training Effect watches - Click for more info More than a heart rate monitor, Suunto's exclusive Training Effect feature tells you whether you're training too little, too hard or staying within the zones for optimal improvement.

[Tyler]

There are may ways to analyze the load or the effect of a workout. But what Suunto has done by using EPOC based Training Effect is to give a user one number or goal to attain only once during a workout in order to improve their fitness. EPOC accumulation is based on intensity and duration as mentioned in the post but also includes a variable for Heart Rate Variation (time between heart beats) which can impact the accumulated EPOC differently as a result of the body being more or less fatigued -- so one day you might accumulate EPOC and Training Effect faster performing the same workout because of the HRV factor.

The accumulated aerobic load or EPOC Peak is then descried relative to a users personalized measurement scale called Training Effect (if you train a lot and profile yourself accordingly with say 8.0 Activity Class it will require more EPOC accumulation to register a 3.0 or Improving effect on your TE scale than for someone who is not training regularly and enters 4.0 Activity Level). Looking to one number to accurately express and summarize the total impact of the session is in essence easier than training with your attention focused all the time on, "is my heart rate in the right zone". Again with Training Effect you only need to know one scale (1-5 training effect in increments of .1) and you only have to attain your Training Effect once during the workout for you to have the improved effect or benefit from the session.

Tip: try training with Target Training Effect feature (t3 or t4) to see time to TE goal or next level at current heart rate intensity. Teaches a great deal about how TE moves based on EPOC accumulation.

For more information on EPOC based Training Effect and the studies validating Suunto calculations visit Firstbeat Technologies - Home and look at the White Papers.

	Suunto Visit SuuntoWatches.com to see Suunto's full line of wrist top computers and compasses.

	Sunnto t3 - Click for more info At one point a fitness enthusiast who wanted to monitor and track their heart rate, caloric burn, and other exercise data would need a tangle of electrodes, complex equipment, and extensive personal guidance from a certified fitness trainer. Today, all you need is a Suunto t-Series wristop training device, a PC, and one or more accessories to create an optimal training range that outlines your ideal energy expenditure and muscle exertion while preventing you from overworking and damaging your muscles.

	Suunto t4 - Click for more info he Suunto t4 is another excellent addition to Suunto's growing line of fitness training wristop computers. Like all of Suunto's t-Series training watches (the t1, t3, t4, and the original t6) the t4 monitors your heart rate and caloric burn to assist you in developing an optimized fitness regimen. It also provides you with information about the progression and effects of your training through constant feedback on how to maximize the intensity our your exercises without the over exertion of your heart and muscles. This "intelligent sports watch", via a simple cell-phone like interface, offers clear advice on how to get the most out of each and every workout.

	Suunto Training Effect watches - Click for more info More than a heart rate monitor, Suunto's exclusive Training Effect feature tells you whether you're training too little, too hard or staying within the zones for optimal improvement.

[jack111]

thanks for the reply.
Have visited firstbeat technologies and have read the dessertation as well.

suunto watches measure just one variable i.e the R-R interval which all heart rate monitors do. nothing to the contrary said in your post.

They use this i.e R-R interval or in other words heart rate to calcualte various things like epoc and training effect.

EPOC accumulation is based on intensity and duration as mentioned in the post but also includes a variable for Heart Rate Variation (time between heart beats) which can impact the accumulated EPOC

To say the above is misleading ...Intensity is measured by how fast your heart beats and nothing else . Since the only thing which suunto measure is the R-R interval.
Heart rate variation in other words is fast heart rate or slow heart rate.

	Suunto Visit SuuntoWatches.com to see Suunto's full line of wrist top computers and compasses.

	Suunto Training Effect watches - Click for more info More than a heart rate monitor, Suunto's exclusive Training Effect feature tells you whether you're training too little, too hard or staying within the zones for optimal improvement.

[Tyler]

Actually in brief without explaining all the science exactly, by using on-off dynamics (measuring heart rate responses many times per second to get the measure at beginning and end of an exercise) there is a calculation of %VO2 max utilization that is made--which is an intensity measure that CAN differ from heart rate intensity (if you only look at % Max heart rate) and causes EPOC accumulation at different rate--not straight line.

Not all heart rate monitors do this!

[jack111]

Hi tyler thank you for your reply but it has resulted in more querries.
You state the vo2 max calculation using HRV is different to % mhr. Would be grateful if you could give me the links to where you got this information.
As it would be interesting to know a] If there is any difference
b] If there is which one is considered more accurate.

HRV can be calculated one of two ways which way does suunto do them
Heart rate variability as an indicator of exercise capacity - US Patent 6301499

measuring heart rate responses many times per second

My resting heart rate is around 55 bpm so when you say the rr interval is measured many times per second what do you mean. As in my case it will take one second to complete one beat so will it record this as missed beats and give an erroneous variability reading. also how many times per second does it try to measure the rr interval 2 or thrice or four times ?

and causes EPOC accumulation at different rate--not straight line.

If you visit the site and scroll down there is a graph showing the area of epoc.
Oxygen Debt
EPOC is an area calculation. But of course if you exert enough you will have a steady increment in oxygen deficit which you could show as a straight line. using hrv does not change human physiology ! .

when you say not all heart rate monitors do this. Can you be more precise, as all of them measure the RR interval. TE and EPOC are derived from this data.

So the only data being measured is the RR interval and various manufacturers use the data differently.

	Suunto Visit SuuntoWatches.com to see Suunto's full line of wrist top computers and compasses.

[Tyler]

Heart rate vs. heart rate variability

RR-I means the time in millisecond between two consequent heart beats.
That is the only input that heart rate monitors takes out from the heart.
Instead of showing the interval time in milliseconds, users are more familiarized watching the heart rate in beats/min value. So yes, every HR monitors measure RR-I.

However, RR-I provides more information than just the pure heart rate.
When analyzing the changes in RR-I times (heart rate variability, HRV), it is possible to detect different frequency bands (high, low, very low).
These spectral components are the “subunits of the variation in RR-intervals and they provide information on respiration rate, ventilation, oxygen consumption etc.

Why to go beyond heart rate?

Additional information to heart rate level can enhance the accuracy of the intensity estimation. The accuracy can be especially increased in interval type training, because heart rate doesn’t react linearly with real oxygen consumption. To see how much the accuracy can be increased by using the HRV derived information in addition to HR, please check validation
studies: Firstbeat Technologies - Download Research Papers

	Suunto Training Effect watches - Click for more info More than a heart rate monitor, Suunto's exclusive Training Effect feature tells you whether you're training too little, too hard or staying within the zones for optimal improvement.

	Suunto Bands - Click for more info The range of Suunto Core Acessory Straps include the six straps as found on the various Suunto Core wristop computer models as well as three additional straps. All straps are compatible with every Core model, allowing you to custom-tailor your Core to your tastes and needs.

[jack111]

RR-I means the time in millisecond between two consequent heart beats.
That is the only input that heart rate monitors takes out from the heart.

This is exactly what I said in my second post glad you can see my point.

To discuss what and how the suunto use this rr interval there are still many unanswered questions in my posts. I will put them to you again
1]

measuring heart rate responses many times per second

so how many times per second do the suunto watches measure heart rate.
Answer : The same number of times any other heart rate monitor company does like cardiosport or polar nothing unique with suunto.

2]

EPOC accumulation is based on intensity and duration as mentioned in the post but also includes a variable for Heart Rate Variation (time between heart beats) which can impact the accumulated EPOC

so how do the suunto measure EPOC using heart rate variability

Answer: rrintervals or in other words the heart rate is averaged over a 5 minute period and the average RR Interval is taken to calculate epoc. beat to beat heart rate variability is thus neutralised.

a method has been established for indirectly assessing a patient's maximum oxygen uptake by computing the standard deviation of five minute mean RR intervals, i.e., the SDANN Index.

..............................

However, RR-I provides more information than just the pure heart rate.
When analyzing the changes in RR-I times (heart rate variability, HRV), it is possible to detect different frequency bands (high, low, very low).
These spectral components are the “subunits of the variation in RR-intervals and they provide information on respiration rate, ventilation, oxygen consumption etc.

The resting membrane potential of a cell is around -60mV. mv standing for milivolts i.e voltage when you say different frequency bands what do you mean. Can you define what we are measuring here as frequency bands can mean anything including aliens sending us signals from outer space.
How a cell depolarizes and repolarizes is important to understand so i suggest you read up on action potential.
Action potential - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have read the literature i.e firstbeat technologies. some of what they say contradicts what you say.

Pre-prediction of EPOC: A tool for monitoring fatigue accumulation during exercise? by H. Rusko, presented in ACSM Congress, San Francisco, May 28-31, 2003.

CONCLUSIONS
(1) EPOC can be pre-predicted from data recorded during
exercise.
(2) Only RR-interval measurement is needed for the preprediction.
(3) If blood lactate concentration and actual EPOC can be
regarded indicative of fatigue accumulation during
exercise then the RR-interval based calculation of
EPOCpred can be used as a tool for monitoring the
accumulation of fatigue during exercise.
(4) Requiring only RR-interval (heart rate) monitoring
EPOCpred is especially suitable for field use.
(5) The accuracy of the present system can be improved by
taking into consideration the individual differences in
the relation between fatigue accumulation and the relative
exercise intensity.

As above.

For me going through the literature the suunto watches with their TE or EPOC donot offer anything as the individual variations are vast and one is better off sticking to their heart rate i.e rr interval and seeing which zone they are in and working on that. Than relying on approximations made for them by suunto.

The suunto lack one key feature which i was looking for that is recovery to a preset resting heart rate. which will tell you how long you take to get back to a particular resting heart rate you have set after a bout of activity which will give you a good idea of how fit you are getting.

I started off trying to convince myself that the suunto was the best and ending up with a cardiosport GT5 and I have no regrets it is simply cool.

	Suunto Visit SuuntoWatches.com to see Suunto's full line of wrist top computers and compasses.

	Suunto Bands - Click for more info The range of Suunto Core Acessory Straps include the six straps as found on the various Suunto Core wristop computer models as well as three additional straps. All straps are compatible with every Core model, allowing you to custom-tailor your Core to your tastes and needs.

[Tyler]

http://dissertations.jyu.fi/studcomp/951391707X.pdf. There everything about RR-I, HRV analysis and EPOC calculation is explained in very detailed.

To answer one question: “Is there actually a variable in the EPOC accumulation equation for HRV which causes EPOC to accumulate differently (faster slower at same intensity one day vs. next) based on the fatigue levels in the body?”

In simple, the rate of EPOC accumulation is calculated by comparing the changes of the intensity level (%VO2max) in consequent time points. More the intensity changes, more rapidly EPOC accumulates. HRV analysis comes to the question, when estimating the intensity level (using RespR and on- and off-dynamics of the VO2).

[Flo]

Some questions for Jack111:

How Cardiosport calculate your preset resting HR?? Hr variability
How many monitors can show RRI in the market?? only three brands
Are Polar "Own" features validated scientifically?? No
Are Suunto features validated?? Yes

The main important thing is that all brands use HR variability to make their own features but not all the brans use RRI technology, anyway the algorithms used to treat that info are not the same so acurracy is not the same in all brands.

Is cool that you trust in Gt5 but is it accurated??

Testing personally T6c's VO2 feature in the laboratory with gas-analysed submaximal text, the variation between T6c data and laboratory data is under 2% in trained athletes so the estimation is more than reliable.

You may try First Beat Athlete & Suunto Memory Belt and their Daily Recovery Stress Report, hope will be useful for you.

Anyway EPOC and TE is the unique way to see the Chargue estimation (taking care or not of HR Zones) in real time and have inmediatly feedback after workout and none other monitors in the market have this feature.

Take a look on this:

"Influence of Increted Duration or Intensity in Training Loads as evaluated by EPOC and TRIMS" Ruskko, H..- KIHU.- Finland.- 1-06-2004

	Suunto Visit SuuntoWatches.com to see Suunto's full line of wrist top computers and compasses.

	Suunto Training Effect watches - Click for more info More than a heart rate monitor, Suunto's exclusive Training Effect feature tells you whether you're training too little, too hard or staying within the zones for optimal improvement.

[dsmith3]

Jack 111
it seems you already picked a training watch so this might not be much help but ill say it anyway. Heart rate beats per minute is obviously a count of how many beats of the heart in the last minute. The thing is there is a variation in when those beats come so that a heart rate of 60 bpm does not mean that your heart is beating once every second. the variation is small something on the order of a few miliseconds so for the most part bpm does fine for training purposes. The variation between beats though can increase or decrease depending on the stress you put on your heart. For instance the variation you would see at 155 bpm would be much less than the variation I would at the same bpm. There would be more stress on my heart than yours. Both Suunto and Polar measure the variation and use it in some cool ways that let you know what type of stress you are putting on your heart for a given exercise. Its not the r-r that's important in these calculations (or not only the r-r) but the difference between the length of time between one r-r and the next. again, fun, but only important if you are seriously training and for the most part heart rate zones are nearly as good.

I do agree with you that the lack of a specific function to tell the time to resting heart rate is a pain but you can get around that fairly easily by starting a new lap at the end of your work out instead of stopping the workout and let the T6 keep collecting data until you reach your resting heart rate.

I don't know if your cardiosport measures the variation between r-r but I'm sure it will work out for most training purposes.

	Suunto Visit SuuntoWatches.com to see Suunto's full line of wrist top computers and compasses.

	Suunto t6 - Click for more info The Suunto t6 is one of the most exciting new personal training devices to hit the health and fitness market this year. The "t" in t6 (if you don't want to get too technical) stands for "training". It actually refers to the time interval between two heartbeats, or EPOC. Measured to the millisecond, this interval allows you (using the included PC software) to assess your current fitness, set a proper training load, measure your actual fitness gain over time, and achieve your overall fitness goals.

	Suunto Training Effect watches - Click for more info More than a heart rate monitor, Suunto's exclusive Training Effect feature tells you whether you're training too little, too hard or staying within the zones for optimal improvement.

[texafornia]

Tyler, I have a question about how the software actually calculates EPOC.

When I change my personal settings, it seems the ONLY thing that makes the EPOC ranges change is Activity Class. I can change Max HR, Mets, everything else, and EPOC ranges never change. If the software is truly calculating EPOC based on HR compared to Max and other things, shouldn't the ranges change if I change those values?

Can you please explain?

Thanks!

[texafornia]

Bump.

Tyler, can you answer my question? Thanks so much!

[Tyler]

Working on it...

[Tyler]

The #1 determinant of EPOC accumulation (the rate at which EPOC
increases) is the intensity of the heart rate relative to programmed
MAX.

In Team Manager play with REANALYZE, from Actions menu choose Reanalyze
then put in different Max and hit Reanalyze--if you do not have newest
version Team Manager 2.3.0.15 Reanalyze does not work (was a bug) so
download newest version from Download Center and play with
Reanalyze--changing Max heart rate 3 beats will affect EPOC accumulation
substantially.

Please let me know if you have other questions.

-- other factors in EPOC accumulation, stress, as measured from heart
rate variability analysis.